Paul McAllister
My name is Paul McAllister. I’m the managing editor for this site, Picturing Black History and I am here with Michael Santiago, interviewing him for the article he wrote for Picturing Black History Photographing History in the Making. And this is about how Michael captured the final crossing of civil rights legend John Lewis during his funeral. Michael, would you like to kind of introduce yourself and give some of your background?
Michael Santiago
Sure. Thank you for having me and for doing this. My name is Michael Santiago. I am a Staff Photojournalist for Getty Images based out of Brooklyn, New York. I, I’m originally from Dominican Republic and have been living in America for going over 30 years and have been with Getty for the last going on five years.Basically capturing, for the lack of a better word, history as it unfolded in everybody’s eyes the last five years, which, every week seems to be something new to add to the history books.
Paul McAllister
That’s cool. We’re happy to have you with us. So can you tell us kind of a little bit about the article, how you were brought onto the project and why you chose to write about this specific subject?
Michael Santiago
When they approached me, about this project, I initially thought that it was just about, images. I had no idea that I needed to write something with the images that came through. And, I’m not a writer. I’m not a writer. I mean, I love to write. I love written words. I wish that I would have become a writer. But, you know, when they when they asked me to pair my images with the words, I was like, okay, I get, I get this shot. I mean, I’ve covered a lot of history, especially in the last couple of years. But, you know, getting a chance to write about my experiences with, you know, the civil rights icon, John Lewis. You know, his final crossing after his passing was something that I couldn’t pass up. I knew that when I received that assignment and when I was there on the ground that this was something that, that this country was always going to going to remember. You go into a little bit in your piece about your experiences learning about Black history.
Paul McAllister
Can you give us more about, like, the impact that this event had on you and how that correlated to your experiences as a child, kind of growing up and learning and absorbing all of this information about Black history?
Michael Santiago
Yeah. I mean, ever since I, I remember I mean, I say this all the time, like when I was in like sixth or seventh grade, I pretty much carried a 100 average in, in social studies class, of in civics because, because I loved I loved history. This is not my native country. So I have always taken every opportunity to learn more about, more about the history of this country, especially how it informs, you know, the past informs well, where we are at today. And then, you know, as a journalist, I have to take into account, you know, what has happened in the past and how that’s still affecting us now.
Paul McAllister
I guess, getting more into, like, more technical details as a professional photographer, as a photojournalist, how did you try to approach this assignment? What was your kind of mentality and method going in?
Michael Santiago
Yeah, I mean, we’ve all, I hope for the most part, everybody in this country has seen the images of, you know, the march to Montgomery from Selma. I had those images in my head the entire time. I was thinking about, you know, the, the images of everybody crossing holding hands. And when I, when I got there, I was paired up with another photographer, and we were talking about what we were going to do and how we were going to approach this. And like in my head, I’m like, all right. I kind of I was thinking that, you know, I kind of want to recreate that image of, you know, of, you know, the hearse or I didn’t. As it was the horse and carriage crossing the bridge. But I kind of wanted to do something different. And for the most part, a lot of photographers were on the other side to capture that, that, that crossing. And that was like, I would, you know, how would it look like if I’m on the other side and I’m catching the hearse going, going to the bridge? Umm. So I took a walk over there and I looked and I’m like, you know, this, you know, this is perfect. You know, I think that for one, there’s not a lot of photographers on this side. So, you know, I’m going to be one of the few to capture, to capture the, you know, the final crossing as, as it begins. And it just kind of makes sense to me. It was just, you know, it was clean. I was already picturing the photo that I wanted, when I got there and had my position and what ended up happening, is that, as time progressed and things, it was about to happen, like everybody just crowded there. So I had to kind of just I had to kind of reposition myself. And I ended up finding a spot where I where I climbed up a little bit higher, and I was able to get to save the spot that I wanted. And I knew exactly where I wanted the hearse to be at and the distance that I wanted from, the bridge where you can see Edmund Pettus Bridge on there. And I just, I just had it all in my head. Envision it that way. And, that photo just came out exactly how I envisioned it.
Paul McAllister
I love your description of the kind of intentionality that goes into the photography of capturing a moment like this. With the project one of the things we’re focused on is giving people a lens into, like, how writers are intentional about the subjects they choose and how they choose to approach them. And it’s interesting to hear you draw out how photographers have to make those same kinds of choices when they’re in the moment, where to position themselves, what research they have to do beforehand. So that’s very enlightening. So you mentioned in the article you were searching for the kind of perfect photo. Do you think that you got it? And what did you mean by the perfect photo? Was it something that would be striking, or were you trying to draw a connection to another series of images that you had in your mind and try to create like a timeline or?
Michael Santiago
How I feel? And one of the things that I have in my head over as my editors and past mentors names that I have in my head is that, you know, a perfect photo or striking photo or memorable photo is a photo that evokes some kind of feeling inside of you. When you when you first look at it, you know that that image, is it going to bring you joy? Is it going to bring you fear? Is going to bring you anger or is it going to trigger a memory for you? And is it going to make you, you know, is it going to make you say, damn? I think a successful photo for me and in my opinion, is one that you’re looking at it for more than three seconds. You know, the average person looks at a photo for 2 to 3 seconds. If I can make you look at my photo for longer than that, then to me, that’s a perfect photo. And, you know, thinking back to it, you know, while, while that photo of, you know, the horse and carriage with the horse getting ready to cross over the bridge is a is a great photo.
I think for me, the happenstance of where I, where I, where I was, I ended up taking what when in my opinion I think it’s a much better striking photo. I, you know, when the hearse was coming, I turned around and the driver of the horse and carriage, he stopped and he stood up and he put his hand on his chest. And at that moment, you had state troopers lined up saluting John Lewis’s casket. And for me, the reason why that moment was, was striking is because all the state troopers who were there saluting the casket of John Lewis were Black, and the importance of being at that site is John Lewis almost lost his life to state troopers back then, and they were all white at that time. So it was just it shows how moments in history can change the trajectory of the world and the world that we live in. And, you know, it was just I think to me, like I’m talking about it just it just it just gives me chills. And I look back and I think for me, from that day, I think that photo for me encapsulates is what I was able to do that day.
Paul McAllister
Yeah, there’s definitely a lot of, I guess, awareness of that kind of sense of history. To kind of broaden that word how do you approach projects where you document the Black experience in the United States or in other places? Yeah, once you do, you have a specific approach?
Michael Santiago
I mean, honestly, I just I just read and I do research. You know, I look to see if anybody else has, has done any kind of photo projects on topics that I’m, that I’m, that I’m looking to do. But a lot of it is just reading. I read a lot. A few years back, I was doing a project on when I lived in Pittsburgh on, poverty and Pittsburgh, and I started doing research and research and reading on poverty in America, you know, and how, you know, what policies were enacted and what could have changed the world. There was a book that came out a couple of years ago, a commission that Lyndon Johnson did on how to improve on how to improve poverty in America and why poverty persists and the conditions for it. And once they saw the, you know, what was causing poverty and so much anger and violence in America, they just kind of like nixed it. And I can’t I’m blanking on that, what that what that book was. But I look I read that book, I try I try and go read that book a lot because, you know, like, had that commission been put out, there could have been a lot of different changes in America that that, would have made a lot of changes. I think back to reconstruction, you know, I think a lot of the problems that persist in America right now is because reconstruction was pretty much just, you know, kicked out of the way, you know, had reconstruction, had that come to pass and had none of that been, backtracked, I think we would live in a totally different, different America.
Paul McAllister
Yeah, definitely. Definitely. You mentioned that you were excited about this particular image that you produced because you felt that that that it was one that would make it into an actual history book. While Picturing Black History is not technically a history book, it does document historical moments. It does have a historical narrative. How do you feel having kind of your piece and this image featured in the book?
Michael Santiago
It’s exciting. I have I mean, there’s been quite a few different books that that have been made and published of, of Black history and, you know, and I, I’m pretty sure I have them all. Some of them I have two copies of and just going through it and, you know, just going through those books, I, I was like, you know, like one day, you know, I’m going to have my work in one of these books. It’s almost kind of like I spoke it into existence and just finding an opportunity to have that and, you know, have my photos with some of the greats that, you know, they have that have, you know, been here before me, people whose footsteps I follow. It was just an amazing honor. And I think one of the biggest differences between this book and the ones that came out previously is that they have words attached to them. But, you know, there’s a real big symbiotic relationship between images and words. And, you know, like, you know, words can be powerful just as images can be powerful. But put them together and it just it totally it takes it to a whole different level.
Paul McAllister
What was your, the reaction of your daughter when she actually, has she seen the book? Has she gotten to like…? Because I know you mentioned.
Michael Santiago
Yeah, I’ve showed her the book and my daughter just turned three-years-old so she doesn’t fully, you know, she doesn’t fully understand, doesn’t understand the significance of that. And every picture she sees like, dada, is that your photo? Is that your photo? So she understands that, you know, that the photos that I take, they end up somewhere. But she doesn’t understand the significance of that yet. But, I mean, she definitely will. But I did show her, and she’s just like, okay, you know, then I’m going to go now. I’m going to go off and play. Do you want to go play with me over here? But, but at some point, you know, she’ll come to understand and learn what, you know, what this what this means.
Paul McAllister
Why do you think this specific project is important? You’ve kind of outlined the connection between pairing images and with words and the kind of amplification that can have with someone’s understanding of history. But can you talk about why that Picturing Black History book specifically, is an important contribution to the kind of that project?
Michael Santiago
Yeah. I mean, you think about, like, you know, the obvious answer is, is to push back to, to Black history and African American history that’s been happening in, in this country. That’s, you know, you think about that. That’s the obvious answer. I don’t know, I get mixed up sometimes about saying Black history or African American history because to be honest its American history. It shouldn’t, it shouldn’t be. It shouldn’t be separate from the history of America. Because, you know, African Americans, Black Americans have always been here. They’ve helped to make this country what it is. But at the same time, African American and Black history have been left out of the context of what’s been taught. And like a lot of the things that I have that I’ve learned, I didn’t learn about them in, in school, you know, they’ve helped me. They’ve helped, it piqued my interest to go out and learn more outside of school then, but I didn’t learn a lot of the stuff. A lot of the, a lot of these images are that are in this book a lot of people haven’t seen, you know, when I think about civil rights images and, images of resistance, they think about, you know, people automatically their, their minds go to protest images and people, you know, sit in, sit in encounters and, you know, getting food dumped on them.
They, you know, they think about the image of being bitten by dogs. But joy is a form of resistance. And a lot of the images that are in this book from the pre-civil rights days are of joy, of young Black boys and girls having fun, smiling, enjoying the day. I think about the picture of Nina Simone holding the cup, the cup of champagne, smiling, Toni Morrison dancing. Lot of, Black joy is a form of resistance and, you know, to, you know, to think about, like to live in a time where, you were hated because of color, your skin, you know, you have people just living and being themselves. You have pictures of, of steelworkers, you know, cabdrivers, African American men and women in military uniforms. All of that, all of that, all of that is joy. And all of that is resistance. And those images are just as important as, people fighting back.
Paul McAllister
Yeah as well.
Michael Santiago
Because that’s a form of fighting back, you know.
Paul McAllister
It definitely is. I’m interested in something you talked about earlier. So in your work as a photographer, working for a kind of news agency, how have you seen the the coverage of kind of Black life and Black activity shift over the course of, I guess, your time as a working photographer, as a photojournalist?
Michael Santiago
I think it’s a little bit different for me now because I, I work for I don’t work for a newspaper. I work for a wire agency. So, I …
Paul McAllister
Can you can you explain the difference?
Michael Santiago
Yeah. So, I mean, we think about, like, I used to work for a local newspaper. I used to work in Pittsburgh. And, you know, that Pittsburgh paper just pretty much focused on the community itself or what was happening in Pittsburgh. You know, what’s happened in certain communities, whether it be, you know, unfortunately, violence or just, celebrations that have happened in communities. So for myself right now with Getty Images we’re a wire service. So we provide, coverage of news, relevant news events that are happening, you know, not just this country but also internationally. So a lot of our focus has to be, things that that are of national interest.
Paul McAllister
Yeah.
Michael Santiago
Per se. So, you know, they, they, you know, they are, they are big events, you know, I spent a lot of time last year and this year covering, president elect Trump’s, court cases, you know, because that of not just of local interest but national interest and international interest. So a lot of the, a lot of the stuff we do pretty much has to embody that kind of that kind of sentiment.
Paul McAllister
Since Picturing Black History is, is a project that, covers both Black life in America but also throughout the entire world. Can you go into a little bit more detail about how your work is international in nature now that you’re working for Getty Images?
Michael Santiago
I think that’s like the March on Washington. And in 2020, that was, that was put on by, I believe it was 2020, might have been 2021, by Reverend Al Sharpton and the National Action Network, where they did the, you know, the Million Man March again. That’s one of those that, you know, it’s yes, we live in America and it’s important to, you know, Black folks here in America. But there’s also Black folks who are living in other countries of the world who are going to, you know, have their eyes on that. You know, people travelled from all over the country and over the world to be here to march on that. That’s one of those, and that was one of those moments that was important to me for me to be there like, alright you know, like I wasn’t around for the past, Million Man marches that happened in this country. So I want to be there for this one, not just, as a Black American, but also as a journalist, documenting what’s happening here.
Paul McAllister
Yeah.
Michael Santiago
The images from that day were, you know, went around across the globe because, you know, a lot of people, you know, when George Floyd was murdered, there was protests all across the world for that.
Paul McAllister
Yeah.
Michael Santiago
So I had some images that that made it from that day that I believe that were used internationally as well. I’m thinking about one specific image where somebody held up, a poster of George Floyd, and the poster was green, and he was like, kind of like multicolored. And it was just in the middle of the frame. And it just kind of it was just a pretty striking image. And I know that that was pretty much used a lot in a lot of places, not just, I believe, not just here nationally, but also internationally as well.