Jessica Viñas-Nelson
I’m Jessica Vinas-Nelson an assistant professor at Arizona State University where I specialize in African American intellectual history within the School of Social Transformation. I focus on identity formation in the 19th and early 20th centuries, and I’m writing a history of Black debates and activism over interracial marriage, and the related concepts of assimilation, extermination, and emigration.

Damarius Johnson
What do you see as the purpose of studying history? And how does the study of history help us understand the present and change the future?

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
To paraphrase James Baldwin, we all carry history within us and are unconsciously controlled by it in so many ways. It’s present in all that we do. It’s built into all of our frames of reference, our identities and our aspirations. So you inherently can’t understand the present, or change the future, without understanding how our present system was built. History is the context for life. Some present day protests, for example, decontextualized from their history, might seem entirely unreasonable or reasonable. But putting this in context, it’s an entirely different matter.

Damarius Johnson
Why do you think it’s important to study lesser-known moments of Black History?

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
Often the lesser-known moments of history are what really define that history, because they are often very purposeful reasons for those moments to be lesser-known. This is true of many types of history, but it seems especially the case for Black History, when there’s been a purposeful attempt to hide or whitewash this history to present a certain type of narrative that tells a story, those in power are more comfortable with. The Tulsa Race Massacre of 1921, for example, is finally getting to be better known as just one of the, unfortunately, hundreds of examples that could be better known of racial massacres against African Americans. Overlooking this history, and overlooking narratives within this history, such as Tulsa’s Black communities fight to protect themselves and obtain justice afterwards, presents history useful to those who carry out the massacre, and those benefiting from the status quo after the massacre. To understand lesser-known moments, and perhaps more importantly, why they are lesser-known is to better understand relationships of power and identity.

Damarius Johnson
Could you talk more about the project that you’re working on now, and maybe how it fits into this question of lesser-known histories and why they matter?

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
My larger research interest is looking at Black debates over interracial marriage and their activism around them. We well understand what white resistance to interracial marriage looked like. And unfortunately, we know quite visually, and viscerally, what opposition from whites looks like in the form of lynching. But we don’t understand, and we don’t look enough at what Black activists and Black thinkers were doing in their fight to protect the right to interracial marriage, even if they personally weren’t supportive of actual interracial marriages. And so, revealing this side of the debate is completing the picture, seeing the full scope of it, and seeing the nuances in fighting for something that you might not actually support the actual right of carrying out.

Damarius Johnson
We’d also like to know, so what inspired you to join Picturing Black History as an author, and to contribute to the partnership between Ohio State and Getty Images?

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
I was interested in contributing to the partnership between Ohio State and Getty Images, because the idea of taking a single image and exploring the history behind it is really a beautiful way to reveal a much larger history than what seemingly just one image can capture. A single image can convey entire volumes. But at the same time, a single image can also be crystallizing, it can seem like a manageable slice of history, even as so much can go into just one deceptively simple image. And so it draws you in and makes you want to explore it and find out more.

Damarius Johnson
It’s a, kind of, picture of women and children marching in Ohio, and if you could just talk about how you found the story, the picture, and then why it matters.

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
To find this image of marching mothers and children, I just simply started going through Getty’s wonderful archives. I think I went through over 20,000 images, and just looking for what image struck me and what image I wanted to find out more about and see what was going on. And so, when I found this image, I immediately was drawn into it. Specifically, the dating of it, and the location of it, because it so beautifully showed and illustrated a point that historians have long been trying to make sure is coming off clearly, is that Brown vs. Board of Education in 1954 was significant, obviously so, but it didn’t integrate a single school. And it’s also in our popular narrative. It was a ruling for southern schools. And so this image, which takes place in Ohio in 1956, runs completely counter to that popular narrative that Brown solved school integration. Brown was the beginning, not the end. I’m not even sure it’s appropriate to say Brown was the beginning, because the fight to just get to Brown, you know, was so much longer and more involved. But this image crystallized a lot of things that’s important to tell about the history of school desegregation, where it was a fight, and it was a fight carried out on the backs of parents and children who had to make Brown, the Brown decision, a lived reality, right? The court could rule something, but it was up to individual Black children and parents to make it a lived reality. And so, this image of two years after Brown supposedly solved everything, and in a place we don’t traditionally think of as being a place with school segregation, but, like, much of the North was very much a place of school segregation. It was very captivating for crystallizing those, and really framing and showing and illustrating those two aspects of what the fight for school integration really and genuinely looked like.

Damarius Johnson
One thing that’s very interesting about this picture and this essay, is also the prominence of women and children and their involvement and activism. And I want to know if maybe that was an important, or an important theme that the image also illustrates, or if you’d like to talk about that more?

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
A third aspect that this image really captures quite beautifully, is another tenet that historians are trying to get across about the reality of what school desegregation efforts looked like. And that’s the prominence of women and children in the movement. They were at the forefront of it. Black mothers made sure that their children got educations. And not only did they march them to the school, but they marched them home afterwards, and then spent the day teaching them, or found ways in their community to make sure that they got an education still, even if they had to go to work afterwards. And so, the prominence of women and children in the movement is a given to those who are familiar with this history, but it’s not as well known in the popular understanding of what this looked like. Maybe what captured the essence of it so much was the rain puddle that you can see in the image. Imagine doing this every day, even when you know, you’re not going to let us in today, you know, the fruitlessness of what it felt like many days, because, you know, Ohio weather…

Damarius Johnson
Yes.

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
That happened a lot of the times, and so getting dressed up, marching to a schoolhouse you’re going to be turned away from, only to go home, I’m sure, take off those formal clothes so you don’t ruin them, and then, you know, settling in to learn for the day, I think is a very captivating idea of what they knew they were trying to do and trying to get across.

Damarius Johnson
Another essay that you wrote kind of incorporates that same idea in another direction in terms of workers of the world, and kind of the impact of Black labor. And so I wanted, if you could, kind of, follow that same process, how you chose the picture, the story, and then talk about its broader significance.

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
To be honest, I can’t remember when I first encountered this image. But I was immediately struck by it. When I heard about this project and saw that this image that had so longed intrigued me was in the Getty archives, I knew I had to explore it, because I always use this image on the first day of each semester to suck my students into the history we’re going to be covering. For students today, and the public today, the placard in this image that really draws people in is the fight police brutality sign. I think it’s, what’s so compelling, in addition to that, about this image, is that that sign fit in perfectly. There was no contradiction between that sign and all of the other signs talking about economic justice, right? Talking about fair labor standards, talking about the right to work, talking about right to fair work and fair pay. There was no contradiction between the struggles for economic justice and physical security, right? There are signs protesting a lynching, and there are signs protesting police brutality, and there’s signs demanding fair labor pay. And so these are inherently connected struggles, and that is what Black activists really brought to the Communist Party that was different from what the American Communist Party was trying to convey at the time. They were treating lynching and police brutality as non-issues, but Black activists saw them as inherently connected to the economic struggle, to the struggle for work, that the party was supposed to be fighting. And so, they were trained to bring them and bridge those struggles together. And really, in the time period after this image, the 1940s, and the 1950s, with the advent of the Cold War, there was an artificial disconnect growing between these struggles where they were seen as separate when they were inherently connected, because of Cold War, because of fears of being accused of being a communist. The economic aspects were often downplayed, but they were so inherently tied into this struggle that you can’t disconnect them. And I think one of the best illustrations of that is one of the most prominent parts of the civil rights movement is, of course, the March on Washington in 1963. But what we often leave out is, the full title of that event was the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom. And so this aspect of work, and economic justice, and fair pay, and fair working conditions was inherently connected to the freedom struggle. In Martin Luther King’s famous, “I Have a Dream” speech from that day, he also makes reference to economic justice, he also makes reference to police brutality, he connects these things to the larger freedom struggle. They’re not individual separate fights that should be dealt with discreetly, but inherently interconnected ones. Part two, I think, of what drew me into this image was in the 1920s, there were very few black communists really, because the party wasn’t focusing on these larger issues beyond economic justice. And so, as some of the most exploited workers, of course African Americans were compelled by the Communist Party, and interested in it, but they couldn’t partner with it without this inclusion, without this focus on this larger struggle. They were pushing for, and they were making the party listen. And the party did eventually listen, and include these larger fights, and that’s thanks to Black activism, who made the struggle larger and more continuous and more representative of their demands and their needs.

Damarius Johnson
So what was your first introduction to Black History Month?

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
My first introduction to Black History Month was probably in elementary school, like with everyone else. But it wasn’t until graduate school, when I learned its origins, and significance, and began to appreciate it some. With the father of Black History, Carter G. Woodson, creating it in the 1920s, when mainstream history was still insisting there was nothing worth studying in Black History. Woodson fought just for this history to be better known and show a fair portrayal of African Americans. And so that’s, that was really my first true introduction to Black History Month.

Damarius Johnson
If you celebrate the holiday today, how do you commemorate it? Or if you don’t, I mean, the tensions around it, this might be a time to explain.

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
Particularly, as a white scholar of African American History, I try to honor Black History Month. But as important as Black History Month is, I think it belongs in every month, in every history. It can’t, and shouldn’t be confined to a month. But I think also what’s important to consider about that, as there’s, you know, long been grumbling, about, you know, Black History Month being in the shortest month of the year. And while that has a very symbolic truth to it that signifies the dismissal, and the downplaying, and the white-washing, and the ignoring of Black History, it has a symbolic truth to it, I think it is important to note that it was chosen, February was chosen, not because it was the shortest month of the year, but because of Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass’s birthdays both falling in February. And so Carter G. Woodson, was very purposeful in selecting that month, even if there’s a larger symbolic truth to the significance of it falling into the shortest month of the year.

Damarius Johnson
And maybe you could talk a little bit about, maybe elaborate a little bit on how much work the specialists of Black History, African American History have to do in February since there’s so much media attention that is not, maybe, expanded across the year. So maybe you can just explain more about that because I think that’s unique.

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
Black History Month, for scholars of Black History, who spend also the other 11 months of the year focused on it, is a very tough month, right? You’re in a new semester still trying to get get started, but you’re also being invited to present at different conferences, and different lectures, and invited to attend these things as well, in addition. Especially in the last few years, as focus in media of Black History Month, and things like films and TV shows featuring the Black experience, they tend to be released all in February. And so it’s this just firehose of amazing material that is released, but it’s also, it’s a firehose, right? You can only consume so much of it. And so, it can be just exhausting to try to keep up with the month, and with this tremendous, amazing, beautiful flow of information that we’re thankful is getting the attention. But because it is so concentrated, and because it’s just coming at you with such a large force, it can be really difficult to do it justice, and to do the month justice.

Damarius Johnson
So just wondering with that kind of contrast, the earlier answer you gave about why Black History Month is significant, and, kind of, Woodson’s efforts to draw public attention to a history that folks argue didn’t exist in the 1920s. If there’s a contrast between, kind of, earlier efforts to put this history on the map, and then contemporary efforts to confine it to a specific space within the month. That’s a contrast that you mentioned. But I wondered if there was more you would say about that, kind of, contrast over time.

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
History evolves, right? And so the fights and the battles for mere inclusion, or what at the time would have been called “contributionist history”, where scholars were fighting in an era of Jim Crow, and segregation, and lynching, just to show that Black people mattered, and that they were contributing to American life in meaningful, and important, and vital ways. That was a tremendously important goal to achieve. To show Black achievement in an era where racism decreed that there was no Black achievement, or just a few exceptional individuals. And so it was dire, quite literally life and death, in many instances, to prove, to show to the world, that Black people mattered, and were capable of high achievement. And so, it’s a celebration. And it’s a pride moment. And it’s a fighting against a world that’s determined to say that Black people don’t matter. And so while that’s unfortunately still the case in many ways, scholarship has fortunately been able to go past just contributionist history, and show the complexity and the beauty in Black history, and its role in every type of history. We’re not merely fighting right now just for basic inclusion in history, but to complicate and to change that larger history, right? Black History, if you’re meaningfully incorporating it into American History, fundamentally has to change that American History. And so that’s why it can be great to celebrate Black achievement and Black accomplishment, and to bring more focus and light to Black History during the month of February. That’s why it’s also all the more important to make sure that Black History is fundamentally shaping all types of history because that’s the reality.

Damarius Johnson
The inclusion of Black History, African American History, has the change in the way that people write and think about it scholars or is it a change of public opinion? Or is it both?

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
I think unfortunately, it’s a change primarily among scholars, and less the public. I think we have made some progress among the public, but I still think it’s largely thought of as Black History Month that focuses on Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King. And these figures certainly deserve to be honored and celebrated, mbut they are the tip of the iceberg. And the coverage they receive even, does not even show, does not even reveal half of how truly extraordinary they really were in our, kind of, simplistic narratives. And so I think in our public understanding, we are unfortunately still very much caught in this contributionist perspective of celebrating a few Black great individuals and not showing how they fit into a larger context of Black activism and work. That scholars today are more focused on showing the complexity and the communities and the many, many other individuals who have contributed.

Damarius Johnson
From the perspective of the present, when we think about all of the achievements that African Americans have made, why is it important to still observe or celebrate Black History Month today?

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
I think it challenged the notion of progress. Of course, there’s been progress, right. But things like Black History Month still aren’t even accepted by all. Every year, there’s news of certain school systems that refuse to cover Black History Month. The fight over critical race theory today is another good example of that. Or I should say, the fight over what’s claimed to be critical race theory today, is a good illustration of that. And it’s often very much handled, Black History Month, is handled in such a token, way that don’t do justice to the history. Because history is more than just achievements too. We can celebrate and look at the achievements of great individuals, and even communities, but there’s also so much more than just achievements to be looked at. There’s continued legacies, there’s continuous structures, there’s all the work that goes into organizing, and institution-building to combat these structures. And so, you can look at it from just an achievement perspective, and that’s important, but there’s also, you need to look at the fuller and more complex history to truly understand what that history tells us, and what it means for the future going forward.

Damarius Johnson
So what are the, kind of, important moments of Black History that everyone should know which you would really would like to draw attention to.

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
Particularly for me, one of the most overlooked eras of Black History, is what historians tend to refer to as “The Long Civil Rights Movement”. The Long Civil Rights Movement, or the Long Black Freedom Struggle, as it’s often called as well, really dates from 1619, but most especially since the end of the Civil War, and particularly the 1920s and on. And so it’s this overlooked period that I think is most important and most compelling to understand what most students are actually interested in learning more about the civil rights movement. But you can’t appreciate, you can’t understand, the significance of the civil rights movement unless you understand the generations of work, and institution-building and ground-laying, what one historian called “the spadework” that went into preparing for that. So what looks like it came out of nowhere, was really the results of generations of struggle to do the hard, overlooked work in which Black thinkers and activists were laying the foundation, and building things like institutional capacity for what would become the civil rights movement. The era is a terrible one in so many ways, with Jim Crow, and lynching at their apex. But it’s also a high point of black community development, and organizational capacity. And that’s the era I think deserves more attention to help you really appreciate the civil rights movement, and just truly the generational work that went into that and made it possible. Because the civil rights movement began long before it appeared on televisions and in White people’s living rooms.

Damarius Johnson
Do you think that this longer, kind of, pre-history of the civil rights struggle is something that needs to be focused more on in classrooms, or for the public understanding, or in terms of scholarship?

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
I think this is primarily a classroom and a public history understanding issue. Scholars are paying attention to this period, right? They are screaming at the top of our lungs really of, hey look, look over here, right? Not just the fancy, shiny looking civil rights movement. And so there’s tremendous scholarship, there could always be more, and I hope there is always more, attention on this period, but I think it’s primarily a lack of understanding in the public, and in the classroom. You know, my students only hear about Black History in their general American History classes a little bit before the start of the Civil War, and then it’s like Black people don’t exist again until the Civil Rights Movement, right? That is the classroom and public understanding of Black History, right? It just disappears for 100 years, when really, it’s one of the most significant periods that are happening where all of this work is going on behind the scenes that’s really beautiful, and powerful, and helping the Black community survive, and thrive, and prepare for the long fight ahead.

Damarius Johnson
So, one last thing that I think could be interesting and helpful for our audiences is if you could talk about your personal, how you came to be personally interested in Black History? What specifically inspired you to become a specialist or an expert in these histories and these stories.

Jessica Viñas-Nelson
I first got interested in African American History as an undergrad taking a class in African American History. And I honestly have never understood how, after being introduced to the subject, you could not want to learn more. It was so compelling to me, the stories, and the complicated relationships, and the fights, and the struggle, and the perseverance, and the understanding of the human spirit that I think African American History reveals. What truly, truly sucked me in to African American History was reading W.E.B. Du Bois’s, “The Souls of Black Folk”. And looking too, at not just that text, but you know, what’s often over simplified in a fight that Booker T. Washington and W.E.B. Du Bois had an intellectual fight over how to best achieve freedom and full rights in American society. And so looking at their intellectual debates, and looking at not just what they were saying and doing in the public sphere, but also what they were doing behind the scenes. They were very publicly not on the same terms, but behind the scenes, they were still cooperating in making some what would have been at the time considered subversive challenges to the system. And so they were cooperating secretly to fight for some radical causes, when publicly, they had some very real and really important differences in their pursuit for freedom and black rights. And so that’s what really first drew me in to the field of African American History. And just wanting to learn more. And the more you study, the more you get into it, the more complicated, and nuanced, and intense that fight seems and is, over people equally committed to obtaining freedom and justice, but with very different ideas about how that should come about. And so I think that is what’s so engaging and tantalizing in Black History, is trying to understand that fuller picture of the nuances and the differences in the debates and the fights for freedom came in many different forms and shapes.